P:E dieting

Gracie204

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What are the differences between a low carb diet, keto diet, and the PE diet? I notice that someone mentions cutting down on cream when on the PE diet, is this essential? And is cheese, a valuable source of protein, allowed on the PE Diet? I don't see it mentioned in any of the postings.
 

Krystyna23040

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What are the differences between a low carb diet, keto diet, and the PE diet? I notice that someone mentions cutting down on cream when on the PE diet, is this essential? And is cheese, a valuable source of protein, allowed on the PE Diet? I don't see it mentioned in any of the postings.
I am not an expert as I have only been doing the PE diet since April. The way I understand it is that you prioritise protein and eat foods that contain a good proportion of protein together with the fat that naturally comes with them. So basically low carb with not quite so much fat.

So foods I like, such as Ribeye steak and shoulder of lamb are fine because they contain a good amount of protein but something like double cream is not so good as it contains a really small amount of protein. Cheese is better than cream because it does contain protein.

I had to cut down on cream because I was literally having vat loads of cream which did not provide the nutrients I need. I still have cream in every cup of coffee but don't consume the truly ridiculous amount I had been having every day prior to starting the PE diet.

So I still keep really low carb at around 20g of carbs a day but my food is much more nutritious. Protein with the fat it comes with - so meat, fish eggs, cheese, full fat greek yogurt and kefir. Seeds and some nuts. Above ground veggies stir fried in butter. Plus berries and of course some cream for my coffees.

Because I have a very small appetite I do add some protein powder..

The improvement in muscle strength has been impressive, but even better is that I feel so well and so full of energy.
 
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muzza3

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A high protein diet can be argued as a high glucose diet

Hi Jim

No real argument with this other than there is a growing school of thought that glucose created by the body IE: converting protein to glucose, is processed differently by our bodies than glucose introduced externally IE: consumed in carbs etc. Like so many diets and impacts on Diabetes it deserves much more research.
 

muzza3

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What are the differences between a low carb diet, keto diet, and the PE diet? I notice that someone mentions cutting down on cream when on the PE diet, is this essential? And is cheese, a valuable source of protein, allowed on the PE Diet? I don't see it mentioned in any of the postings.

Hi @Gracie204

Again no expert here but have used all of these diets, currently about 4 months on the PE Ratio diet

Low Carb Diet - to me this is typically consuming less than 150g of Carbs per day with the other main guideline calories depending on whether you want to lose weight, gain weight or maintain weight - Focus on Carbs and Calories

Keto Diet - Aim is to maintain a state of ketosis with extreme low carb and high fat focus

PE Ratio Diet - The key focus is on grams of protein consumed with total grams of fat and carbs to be less than protein if wanting to lose weight, equal to protein if you want to maintain weight and greater than protein if you wish to gain weight. While not extreme low fat it is recommended that you keep fats within the ratio. It is low carb but not as restrictive as Keto as long as you keep within the PE ratio.

With PE Ratio Diets the key word is ratio. So within those guidelines you have a lot of freedom in carbs and fats eg: you can have more grams of fat and less carbs as long as you maintain the ratio to Protein. I find that personally I use more carbs than I have previously and less fat but that does vary depending on meals etc. So you can consume cream and cheese on this diet within the ratio.

This diet gives me much more freedom in food choices and has improved energy, fullness and muscle growth. While undertaken by me to find a sustainable diet that I can adopt long term and at this stage to continue to lose weight it has actually reduced my FBG from the mid to high 5's to the mid to high 4's. It is still low carb but I now have between 70 to 130g of carbs daily depending on meals etc
 

Gracie204

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Hi Muzza3 and Krystyna23040

Thank you so much for your informative and helpful replies.

I was diagnosed as being pre-diabetic a couple of years ago, then this year experienced chronic pain for about three months. When this passed I discovered my blood glucose levels had moved to the diabetic range. Prior to this I followed a low carb diet and found while it kept my blood glucose levels on a fairly even keel I did not lose weight. Hence my interest in the PE Diet.

I'm afraid macros, ratios, etc are beyond me, and would like some help understanding them and the PE Diet. My current weight is seventy four kilos (eleven stone seven pounds), and I would like to be ten stone (forgot to look up how many kilos). So the PE Diet recommends that I should be eating one gram of protein for each pound of my target weight, and then half this number for carbs and fat. Is this correct or am I hopelessly wrong?

However, when I envisage 140 grams of protein a day, it's not a lot for two meals. I'm sure I am currently eating more on my low carb diet. Half a portion of a rib eye steak could easily be 100 grams, so that only leaves 40 grams for the other meal. How much fish, cheese, eggs, can I get for 40 grams? And I assume that fats, cream, butter, oils, vegetables, salads, etc come out of the other allowed 70 grams.

I've looked on various PE websites, and I cannot find any explicit instructions for the diet. Perhaps it's a way of making people purchase the book. Some of the sites have graphs of what to eat, but I've found the print so miniscule I cannot read it, and when I click onto the graph to make it larger it doesn't work!

Krystyna23040: I love cream! And I've found in the past that cream in coffee has given me the ability to make it through from six in the evening to perhaps twelve the next day. But alas I'm not being very good with the fasting at the moment, and tending to pick in the evening.

Best wishes to you both, and once again many thanks.
 

Krystyna23040

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Hi Muzza3 and Krystyna23040

Thank you so much for your informative and helpful replies.

I was diagnosed as being pre-diabetic a couple of years ago, then this year experienced chronic pain for about three months. When this passed I discovered my blood glucose levels had moved to the diabetic range. Prior to this I followed a low carb diet and found while it kept my blood glucose levels on a fairly even keel I did not lose weight. Hence my interest in the PE Diet.

I'm afraid macros, ratios, etc are beyond me, and would like some help understanding them and the PE Diet. My current weight is seventy four kilos (eleven stone seven pounds), and I would like to be ten stone (forgot to look up how many kilos). So the PE Diet recommends that I should be eating one gram of protein for each pound of my target weight, and then half this number for carbs and fat. Is this correct or am I hopelessly wrong?

However, when I envisage 140 grams of protein a day, it's not a lot for two meals. I'm sure I am currently eating more on my low carb diet. Half a portion of a rib eye steak could easily be 100 grams, so that only leaves 40 grams for the other meal. How much fish, cheese, eggs, can I get for 40 grams? And I assume that fats, cream, butter, oils, vegetables, salads, etc come out of the other allowed 70 grams.

I've looked on various PE websites, and I cannot find any explicit instructions for the diet. Perhaps it's a way of making people purchase the book. Some of the sites have graphs of what to eat, but I've found the print so miniscule I cannot read it, and when I click onto the graph to make it larger it doesn't work!

Krystyna23040: I love cream! And I've found in the past that cream in coffee has given me the ability to make it through from six in the evening to perhaps twelve the next day. But alas I'm not being very good with the fasting at the moment, and tending to pick in the evening.

Best wishes to you both, and once again many thanks.
I think that @Muzza explained it really well in his post. Especially when he wrote that 'PE Ratio Diet - The key focus is on grams of protein consumed with total grams of fat and carbs to be less than protein if wanting to lose weight, equal to protein if you want to maintain weight and greater than protein if you wish to gain weight. While not extreme low fat it is recommended that you keep fats within the ratio. It is low carb but not as restrictive as Keto as long as you keep within the PE ratio.' I really like it that this is really the only rule.

I actually think that you have been following the PE diet anyway because it looks as though you are already consuming a very large amount of protein. I use Fat Secret to log my food, but there are lots of apps that do exactly the same. You can then really easily tweak your diet so that your carbs and fats are lower than your protein intake.

I also love Ribeye Steak but really struggle to eat even a 200g Ribeye steak which only gives me 50g of protein. Actually, I have only managed this once and usually share my steak with my 2 labradors. Not surprisingly I am my labrador's favourite person.

I am so impressed that you can eat a 400g Ribeye steak. If only I could do that I wouldn't need to supplement with protein powder.
 

Krystyna23040

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400g is the legal minimum for a ribeye. Regarding macro ratios and the like, my mantra is now simply “eat animals when hungry.”
My problem is that I just cannot eat a steak that large. Even an 8oz steak (227grams) is totally beyond me. A 10oz steak (283 grams) is even worse. Have never been able to eat huge meals and as I have got older it seems to be even harder. I am not sure if that can ever be resolved.

The meat is never wasted. If we go to a restaurant I always take a doggy bag for the Labs (if they haven't come with us).
 

Mbaker

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What are the differences between a low carb diet, keto diet, and the PE diet? I notice that someone mentions cutting down on cream when on the PE diet, is this essential? And is cheese, a valuable source of protein, allowed on the PE Diet? I don't see it mentioned in any of the postings.
This is a very difficult question to answer due to the variables. Low carb for someone severely insulin resistant may need to be ketogenic levels.

Low carb for the mainstream tends be 130 grams or carbs maximum. For Low Carb Doctors they tend to settle at 100 grams. Ketogenic for Virta Health is 30 grams or less, for Dr Eric Westman it is 20 grams or less (as he wants to guarantee keytone production). Without going down this rabbit hole the gist purpose of low carb and ketogenic diets is to find the grams of carbs where you can fuel your lifestyle and have a cross over with your health markers well being - this needs to be individualised.

The P.E. diet is a hybrid approach which is meant to be diet religion agnostic, so can be used by animal and plant based people. Protein is the focal point due to its arguably superior profile than fat and carbs overall, where protein ingestion is attempted to get between 30 and 40% of total calories. I think the only flaw with the P.E. mantra is in the summary aspect of equating fat energy and carb energy as inter-changable, just because they both ultimately create atp. I believe the right amount of healthy fat wipes the floor with carb energy, especially in the context of a majority sedentary population. Higher glucose and insulin is positively associated with health degradation.

In short common sense is where it is at. Would one really expect great results with either too much cream in meals or high carbs. Many look to "game" their systems in either direction, so depending on goals the right balance can be struck; I knew my intake of nuts has been far too many, so have had to get to a point of satisfying the desire and amount.

I do believe the P.E. diet is the best overall, esepcially well suited to animal based diets, as protein and fat go hand in hand with great base foods such as beef, ribs, lamb and the like, so no thinking required. The p.e. ratio de-facto makes food choices better e.g. candy floss, so and so bars, cereals are out (good job).
 
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Krystyna23040

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Would one really expect great results with either too much cream in meals
Yes, I totally agree with your very informative post - especially your comment about the cream.

I was totally bonkers to think that I would get great results from too much cream. I think that I just didn't think about it at all. I just thought that it was such an easy way to get the energy I needed for a very active lifestyle. I must admit that I feel so much better now I have 'mended my ways'.
 

Mbaker

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Yes, I totally agree with your very informative post - especially your comment about the cream.

I was totally bonkers to think that I would get great results from too much cream. I think that I just didn't think about it at all. I just thought that it was such an easy way to get the energy I needed for a very active lifestyle. I must admit that I feel so much better now I have 'mended my ways'.
In my view, our community has a super power. We are effectively hacking a stacked system. Tribes such as the Maasai have it technically easier I feel, as in a bad example they might only have 30 foods to choose from, we have 600,000 specifically designed to to hit the senses - you can eat a ... bar if it doesn't exist in your neighbourhood. It is like trying to navigate across a muddy pitch in a white suit without getting messy.

"We" therefore need hacks to bypass the relentless onslaught of tasty delights that have a sting in the tale. This challenge is played out everyday on this website and by those on weight watchers, slimming world etc; we all want to be slim and healthy in an environment which does not lend itself to this end.
 

muzza3

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I'm afraid macros, ratios, etc are beyond me, and would like some help understanding them and the PE Diet. My current weight is seventy four kilos (eleven stone seven pounds), and I would like to be ten stone (forgot to look up how many kilos). So the PE Diet recommends that I should be eating one gram of protein for each pound of my target weight, and then half this number for carbs and fat. Is this correct or am I hopelessly wrong?

Hi @Gracie204

While no expert I will try and put some numbers to this for you

Your Target Weight : 140lbs Target Protein 140 grams (You are spot on here)

Example of a positive PE Ratio for you : Protein 140grams, Carbs 60 grams Fats 60 grams PE RE Ratio = Protein divided by Carbs and fats combined ie: 140g divided by 120 (60grams Carbs plus 60 Grams Fat) = 1.17

So when wanting to lose weight you want your PE Ratio to be over 1. There is no set number but I usually run around a PE Ratio of 1.2 to 1.3.

Your total grams of fat and carbs does not need to be half of the protein more like 70 to 90%. I don't get to caught up on the exact numbers so 135 - 150 grams of protein wouldn't worry me at all but just try to keep the ratio positive. Also the grams in Fat and Carbs vary every day for me depending on what I eat so in this example I could have 90 grams of Carb and 30grams of fat and would still have a PE Ratio of 1.17.

Half a portion of a rib eye steak could easily be 100 grams, so that only leaves 40 grams for the other meal.

I think you may be confusing the weight of the Rib Eye with the protein content. I had a 167g rib eye yesterday it contained 38 grams of protein and 5grams of fat

I've looked on various PE websites, and I cannot find any explicit instructions for the diet. Perhaps it's a way of making people purchase the book.

You are right it is well set up to make you buy the book. I have to confess I have not bought the book but I will do not so much to read it but to give the Dr Naiman some compenstaion as I think this is a wonderful diet for me. I gathered my information after first reading this thread by listening to various interviews and how to's on Youtube and podcasts which I just googled.

Finally I track using my Fitbit App which I already had.

I hope this helps to some degree and don't hesitate to come back with any questions
 

Gracie204

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Hi Muzza3

Thank you very much for your time and help that you have so generously given in helping me understand the PE Diet. However, you're probably going to wish you hadn't, because I'm struggling!

Right, I understand what I was doing wrong in the first instance, thinking that the weight of the rib eye steak equated to how many grams of protein I should be eating when in fact I should have been looking at the actual grams of protein contained in the steak. So although the steak may weigh 8 oz, it only has 37 grams of actual protein in it, and it is this figure I should be working on.

So I looked up the following:

8oz Rib Eye Steak 37 grams of protein
3 Medium Eggs 17.1 grams of protein
100 grams Sea Bass 23.9 grams of protein

Totalling 78 grams of protein.

This amount of protein would be more than enough for me to eat in a day, but according to the PE Diet I'm allowed 140 grams protein per day, so if I ate the above I would have shortfall of 62 grams of protein. Or am I getting it totally wrong?

You quote the ratio figure of 1.17, and I have come across a chart showing various foods and accompanying vegetables, and a figure at the side perhaps saying 1.5. Poultry and vegetables, for instance, show a figure of 2.5, which is higher than the ratios you quoted of 1.2/1.3. So would eating the higher ratio food be a good thing or a bad one?

And I never realised how many carbs there are in above the ground vegetables until today when I looked them up. I've always eaten quite a few vegetables believing that they are good for me. For instance, two cups of cauliflower contains ten grams of carbs, and I love cauliflower, cooked, mashed with butter and a teaspoonful of mustard added. And one cup of green beans has 7.9 grams of carbohydrates. No wonder I cannot lose weight! Been eating too many vegetables.

Are you thinking I'm a lost cause? You'd probably be right. Perhaps I'd be best sticking to low carb, and just cutting down on the fats?

Best wishes.
 

muzza3

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his amount of protein would be more than enough for me to eat in a day, but according to the PE Diet I'm allowed 140 grams protein per day, so if I ate the above I would have shortfall of 62 grams of protein. Or am I getting it totally wrong?

That is correct. So you need to adjust your diet to get the additional protein. I don't eat Eggs a lot as they also include a fair bit of fat. In the mornings I have YoPro High Protein yogurt and also one for desert each evening. This get me a about 30g of protein and only about 14grams of Carbs and 2 grams of fat. (they are also very nice love the Mango)

I only eat vegetables with dinner and would consist of 1/2 cup of each of Cauliflower, Zucchini, Broccoli and carrot for example. For lunch I might just have a rib eye steak or a quarter roast chicken (no veg). Most of us on high protein will use either a protein shake or bar during the day to top up the protein particularly when you have no time to cook during the day. Some cold meats are good snacks and I have the occasional pack of salted popcorn in the afternoon



You quote the ratio figure of 1.17, and I have come across a chart showing various foods and accompanying vegetables, and a figure at the side perhaps saying 1.5. Poultry and vegetables, for instance, show a figure of 2.5, which is higher than the ratios you quoted of 1.2/1.3. So would eating the higher ratio food be a good thing or a bad one?

I calculate the ratio over the whole days foods and make some food decisions depending on where the ratio is at as the day progresses. At a ratio of 2.5 for one meal is more than feasible if meat and a little veg but over a whole day you are either eating a ton of Protein or very little carb and fat over the day so I don't think that would be sustainable


Are you thinking I'm a lost cause? You'd probably be right. Perhaps I'd be best sticking to low carb, and just cutting down on the fats

Not at all but the reality is that even if you go low carb/low calorie to lose weight you will need to measure these macros and adjust what you eat or you will continue to get the same result. So going thru this process should help you either way.

Best of luck
 

Gracie204

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Hi Muzza3, Thank you so much for helping me! You've been great. I'll give it a go over the next few weeks and see if I can shift a few pounds. Best wishes.
 

muzza3

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15 September 2021

18 weeks on PE Diet

79.3kg
Gained .2kg this past fortnight. Lost 9.4kg since start of PE Diet. (30.7kg since January)

Fasting BG 7 day average 4.7
14 day average 5.0
30 day average 5.0

Macros Weekly Average

Carbs 92g
Fats 48g
Protein 165g
PR Ratio 1.17
Calories 1612

Body contour scales
Body fat slightly up at 25.6% (starting 29.8%)
Muscle down at 37.8% (starting 35.9%)
Hip 97cm (Started measuring 1/8/21 @100cm)
Waist 94cm (started measuring 1/8/21 @99cm)
Hip to Waist ratio .96 (was 1)
BMI 26.6

Been off the grid for the past two or so weeks. Been supporting my wife with some health issues and also dealing with a Covid lock-down which has been in effect for 5 weeks and just been extended another 4 weeks and with a little depression. The good news is that she is doing really well, I am feeling very well and am really excited that the PE Ratio diet is ticking all the boxes for a way of eating going forward that I am really comfortable with. The flexibility and being able to include higher carb levels have made it not so much of a chore and also easier to work in with family meals particularly in the evenings with a cup of rice, or spaghetti a couple of times a week or some chips with fish n chips once a week also being able to work into the ratio and having negligible effect on FBG.

Obviously continuing with the diet and will try to update weekly. Current goal is top end of normal BMI which is another 4.5kg hoping to get there before Xmas.

This is definitely worth a try for anyone struggling with other diets
 

Krystyna23040

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Just a quick update. I am so pleased with how things are going. Although I am not quite achieving the 1g of protein per lb of bodyweight my protein intake is more than double what it was prior to the PE diet and this seems to be working well for me.

When I started in April I had to keep my carbs very strictly below 20g to achieve good blood sugars. Now I am so pleased to report that 30g of carbs now gives me really good blood sugars. I am sure that this is because I am building lean muscle mass.

it is so wonderful to be able to have a bit more yoghurt or kefir or a few more berries or even tomatoes or occasionally some onion - without messing up my blood sugars.

If course there have been a lot more benefits to prioritising protein - like the increase in energy and feeling so well - but having a little bit more flexibility with the carbs has made me really happy.
 

ianpspurs

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Hi guys. @Gracie204 I'm very much with you on being baffled at times - well for 6.5 years- so don't feel alone in the "special" class. @muzza3 hug for your wife but winner for your progress. @Krystyna23040 you always post such sense and I'm so pleased for you. I feel I need to do a reboot of my way of eating so your post popping up on my time line was perfect timing. Thank you all 3 for just opening the curtains enough to allow a chink of light in. I still have absolutely no idea how anyone can eat hot food and stay LC - fish doesn't stay hot. Without protein without shakes how does anyone get to 160-170 gms protein?
 
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Goonergal

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Without protein without shakes how does anyone get to 160-170 gms protein?

Large portions of meat/fish. In my one meal yesterday, which consisted solely of lamb shoulder, I estimate there was about 140g protein in the meal. Didn’t weigh it, so that’s based on the size of the joint, minus a bit for the bones.

Today after a couple of self-made burgers, topped with an egg and 3 rashers streaky bacon, followed by Fage 0%, I reckon I’m already at 65g. That’s not including any incidental protein in the (very) small portion of onions with the burger, 7 or 8 raspberries and a small amount of Hunter + Gather mayo.

Should add that while I definitely prioritise protein, I am no longer looking at leaner cuts as I get better results with the fattier cuts, so per 100g my protein content is likely slightly lower than someone eating leaner cuts. But my portions are not small!
 

lucylocket61

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This is interesting. I don't know how I missed this thread.

Is it possible to do this if you have to eat little red meat?

I weigh around 200lbs, so how much protein do I need?

Thanks