Eat, Fast and Live Longer

[Grazer]

The programme said if you did intermittent day fasting, you could eat whatever you liked on non-fast days, so trifel would be ok :lol:

Hmm, think that may be the case for weight loss, but not so much for BG control! :lol:
This stuff about fasting being bad for diabetics though - I think the whole "you must eat regularly if you're diabetic" thing is probably right for those using insulin or other potentially hypo inducing drugs, for safety reasons. But I can't see any reason why type 2s on diet only/metformin shouldn't fast.

 

[angua]

I have always read that it is important that diabetics eat regular meals.

well me too, but where did we read it, who told us ... and why ? an aftermath of trying to maintain steady bg levels before testing was more available/understood ? - (enlightened by Grazers post above)

Does anyone have any real research on why we have to eat breakfast for instance?



I know people say 'most important meal of the day' and your body goes into 'starvation mode' if you miss it but that sounds kind of hokey to me? What is the evidence for that?

- if we were going off to do a hard physical days work, it would make sense to 'fuel up' - so is this a left over saying that's been resurrected by the bods who want to sell us their stuff :shock:

well what if I break me fast at lunch and not breakfast I wonder if that would have a similar effect Dillinger

I broke my fast at about 2.30pm - I sailed thru breakfast time, started to get a bit growl-y about 1.30 made my bacon and eggs in a very leisurely fashion, trying to ignore my drooling alter ego. The effect was that I ate a meal I was really looking forward to, savoured every mouthful and felt shockingly full afterwards :thumbup:

best of luck to all and thanks to Fraddy and Jo for the support

Gilly xx

 

[phoenix]

by angua » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:53 pm

Sid Bonkers wrote:

I have always read that it is important that diabetics eat regular meals.


well me too, but where did we read it, who told us ... and why ? an aftermath of trying to maintain steady bg levels before testing was more available/understood ? - (enlightened by Grazers post above)

The ADA says

DM: Carbohydrate Intake Consistency

In persons receiving either MNT alone, glucose-lowering medications or fixed insulin doses, meal and snack carbohydrate intake should be kept consistent on a day-to-day basis. Consistency in carbohydrate intake results in improved glycemic control
Rating: Strong
Conditional

There are references I haven't followed them up not all will be relevant as there are other statements on the same page.
http://www.adaevidencelibrary.com/templ ... w=1&auth=1

 

[Grazer]

The ADA says
DM: Carbohydrate Intake Consistency
In persons receiving either MNT alone, glucose-lowering medications or fixed insulin doses, meal and snack carbohydrate intake should be kept consistent on a day-to-day basis. Consistency in carbohydrate intake results in improved glycemic control
Rating: Strong
Conditional

Sorry, don't think this disputes the theory of fasting breaks. The ADA statement on consistency is fine, and obvious, because the implication of NOT being consistent with carbs is that your overall average carb intake could come from none one day (or one meal) to massive carby meals the next which would send BGs soaring on that day/meal. That doesn't however mean you couldn't fast one day IF your carbs the next were sensible and within your tolerance. The ADA statement is about steady carbs; this thread isn't neccesarily about carbs, but avoiding ALL foods on one occasion and eating normally the next.

 

[xyzzy]

Got round to watching the program last night and found it interesting.

On the fasting / calorie reduction thing. I actually thought a lot of this was stating the obvious so if you eat a diet high in fruit / veg at RDA protien levels that is calorie restricted then it really is no surprise your BG and lipid levels will improve. The calorie restriction they mentioned was 1800 a day. Replace a lot of the fruit with even more veg and that is probably close to my diet. When I was counting calories in the first 3 months that is what I was roughly averaging and it certainly sorted out my BG levels. Likewise the alternate and even 4 day fasting regimes are likewise simply stating if your average calorie intake drops i.e your average is 1800 then you are likely to see similar improvements in my opinion.

The really interesting stuff was about IGF-1 and how supressing that response could make you live longer and lower your risks of cancer etc. I thought the fact that it puts your body in "repair mode" rather than "go go" mode was a remarkable thing.

What I didn't quite get was why they said it had to be a low protein diet as opposed to a diet that would minimise the release of insulin as its insulin that triggers the release of IGF-1. The text under the diagram I've included says:

http://www.pnas.org/content/94/7/3223/F8.expansion.html

In this model increased circulating insulin stimulates the sythesis and release of IGF-1

There are numerous sites which seem to state the same thing. I simply picked the site as it has the simplest diagram.

Lots of body building sites seem to have known about this insulin IGF-1 thing for quite a while and say that it's carbohydrates that predominantly are responsible for insulin production and that reducing carbohydrates also reduces IGF-1 production. :shock: :lol: As diabetics again this is such an obvious thing! In fact the program itself seemed to nearly say reducing carbs would do it by stating later that high fat diets where fine so long as they too were calorie restricted.

How do you calorie restrict a high fat diet while keeping protein levels normal? Restrict your carbohydrates would seem to be only answer and is again to me perfectly natural as like I say I do a lchf diet that restricts calories to roughly 1800 a day. So as far as I can see the diet I follow every day is pretty much close to what was being advocated without the need for fasting or am I missing something?

 

[lucylocket61]

Is there a way to avoid liver dumps while fasting?

 

[angua]

Is there a way to avoid liver dumps while fasting?

yesterdays bg 5.5 this morning 5.6 so no liver dumps during my fasting

normal waking bg for me averages 6.9 ( higher that my postprandial levels which avg 6.3 )

Gilly x

 

[angua]

What I didn't quite get was why they said it had to be a low protein diet as opposed to a diet that would minimise the release of insulin as its insulin that triggers the release of IGF-1.

There seemed to me to be several threads in the one programme - one of them being that the 4 day fast, whilst promoting a reduction of IGF-1 it wasn't something that 'normal' people could stick to whereas the ADF or 5:2 showed significant gains, whilst being do-able by joe bloggs

As for the eating 'whatever you want' after the fast, its certainly not something I'd follow, nor I suspect Mr Mosely would advocate but its a potential carrot for those who have serious weight/health issues and little motivation.

I also noticed that his fasting 500 calorie meal was scrambled eggs w/butter and lean ham and strawberries - whatever the calorific value of the meal (film editing) there seemed to be a complete absence of carbs - unlike his porridge, raisins and bacon after fasting

 

[borofergie]

Is there a way to avoid liver dumps while fasting?

Yup. Ketosis.

 

[BarbaraG]

Hello,

Please excuse this newbie butting in. I saw the Horizon programme last week and was fascinated. Today is my 3rd fast day! Like Grazer, I can't see any reason why someone on metformin only (like me!) can't fast. In fact, I would think that someone on insulin or sulfonylureas could fast IF they adjusted their medication to keep their BG under control, but that is obviously tricky, so the easiest thing is to say don't do it.

So, initial experience is that my fasting reading, which is typically 6.0-6.5, has been just under 5 the day after my fast. I've been doing a single meal of around 500 calories at lunchtime on the fast day, and eating normally the other days.

Since the start of this year I've lost over 5 stone through healthy eating and exercise, greatly helped by an MP3 download called Slimpod. My HbA1C was 7.3% in January, a few weeks ago was down to 6.0%. I was able to ditch gliclazide in April, and with the last HbA1C my metformin was reduced from 4 to 3 a day. I still have more weight to lose, but hope that intermittent fasting will be another tool in the box, which may enable me to get off tablets altogether. After 12 years, that would be wonderful

Barbara

 

[Grazer]

Well done Barbara, always good to see someone getting off meds with diet!

 

[xyzzy]

There seemed to me to be several threads in the one programme - one of them being that the 4 day fast, whilst promoting a reduction of IGF-1 it wasn't something that 'normal' people could stick to whereas the ADF or 5:2 showed significant gains, whilst being do-able by joe bloggs

Yes that was the other bit I didn't quite understand. He went off to see the calorie reduction man first. MW and I both thought that calorie reduction would be far more extreme than limiting to 1800 calories a day! My BMR currently calculates that to maintain my current weight with a BMI of 23 I should be eating around 2250 calories a day so the reduction is pretty minor (don't eat that cheese sandwich or sausage roll or bar of chocolate etc.) I couldn't quite understand why dropping by 400 calories a day was seen to be "too difficult" for Joe Bloggs to do. Like I say if the aim is to end up restricting to an overall average of around 1800 calories a day then its obvious you can do this by actually eating 1800 calories a day or by adopting a fasting / eating pattern that ends up delivering that same average. To me fasting seems a sleight of hand way of getting people to consume less calories and if you are pigging out on the non fasting days your BG profile will end up spikey and that has been shown to produce worse outcomes than those who maintain a non spikey BG profile.

Actually the more I am finding about this the more intriguing it gets. There is an interesting section on IGF-1 production in Lynn Macdonalds "The Ketogenic Diet: A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner" which is a pretty good guide to the pros and cons of a Ketogenic diet but written a few years ago. You can read it online here.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...0CFMQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=IGF-1 ketosis&f=false

The relevant paragraphs on IGF-1 say



Looking at what I've underlined in red then FFA is the process that drives your energy requirements from ketones rather than glucose by burning your fat cells which is why low carb and ketogenic diets get you to lose weight. GH is a thing called Growth Hormone. GH and insulin are BOTH needed to be present for IGF-1 production to happen so a low carb or ketogenic diet will suppress IGF-1 production because they produce little insulin and it's this suppressing IGF-1 action that the program says is why you will live longer.

The section also solves the low protein thing as it says insulin is produced by both protein and carbohydrate containing meals. Earlier in the book the author does point out that consuming carbohydrates does produce far more insulin than protein. This raises the question then surely if the scientists who are testing out the IGF-1 theory are clever enough to work out why suppressing IGF-1 is a good thing then they must know that reducing carbohydrates is a far more effective method of reducing insulin production than reducing protein so why did the program say lower protein and not lower carbs?

My other thought was as diabetics then surely Type 1's who lower carbs and inject less insulin as a consequence will benefit from this LGF-1 suppression. Likewise it raises the question that does a Type 2 who has an impaired insulin production capability caused by beta cell loss end up naturally suppressing LGF-1? Even if it doesn't or you are a mostly insulin resistant Type 2 then adopting a low carb regime would suppress LGF-1 and give you the benefits if the claims turn out to be proven.

 

[phoenix]

Purely by chance I came across this blog post.
" Shattering the Myth of Fasting for Women: A Review of Female-Specific Responses to Fasting in the Literature"
http://www.paleoforwomen.com/shattering ... iterature/
The writer sugests that what evidence there is points to the possibility of different gender differences in the response to fasting.

She quotes one study in which the authors started their disucussion

“Alternate day fasting may adversely affect glucose tolerance in nonobese women but not in nonobese men.”

The men in this case increased their insulin sensitivity, the women didn't and moreover had an increased area under the curve during glucose testing. Note the subjects were of normal weight.
She only found 3 trials in women and none at all in women of reproductive age (and none in people with diabetes either) so as she says there isn't much to go on but the blog and the 200 comments, some from women who have tried various forms of fasting , might be worth a read

 

[viviennem]

Hi all

I've only just got around to reading all this thread (been busy) but I shall be trying the intermittent fasting from the 26th August, when my round of visitors has ceased.

I intend to have my normal 'breakfast' of a 2-egg omelette (about 250 cals) close to mid-day, and then the other 250 cals over the afternoon/evening in fliuds, which will probably include a Slimfast shake made with water, as I have some in stock. I'm afraid I can't face the day without my first-thing coffee (splash of milk + 1 Splenda tab), after that it will be 2 litres of water over the day, plus green tea.

I'm going to try for Monday and Thursday, I think. I'll let you know how i get on - I didn't manage very well when I tried the Newcastle Diet, only lasted a week. This may suit me better.

Talking of the ND, I contacted Prof Roy Taylor (trying to blag a go under his table-top MRI - sadly, no luck!). He is still looking for Type 2 volunteers for his research (this was my second question) - local to his area. I'm too well-controlled :roll: .

He's easy to find via Google - Newcastle University Magnetic Resonance Imaging Centre.

Viv 8)

 

[Super D]

I am Type 2 and considering this regime. On 3 x 500mg metformin so when should I take these?

 

[BarbaraG]

I'm now on 3x850mg metformin. I have been taking two with my single meal on the fast days, and ditching the third. BG's have been fine to fantastic.

Barbara

 

[pierre]

Have jut seen it advertised in paper and realised I have missed it. Do you know if it gets repeated? Would it be possible for you to give us a brief summary of what they were saying?

Thanks. Judith

hello judith you can watch the full episode on you tube.

 

[WhitbyJet]

My fasting day yesterday:
Got up at 7.30am, fasting bg 4.7, weight 62.5kg - large mug of ginger & lemon tea
Prepared fasting soup = organic courgette, celery, carrot, leek, cabbage, pepper, onion, cauliflower, home made bouillon powder, home grown herbs
Meditating for half hour, all relaxed and calm
Pottering around the house during the morning, sorted out cupboards, its like Christmas, found things I forgotten we have, sorted out my herbs, all overgrown in the pots, chopping and freezing them.
10am - large mug of rosehip tea
Lunch - 2 bowls of soup, 1 large mug of apple & cinnamon tea - bg 4.8
Afternoon - spa treatment = dry skin brushing, soak in bathtub with lots of bubble bath followed by application of aromatherapy body lotion all over pedicure, manicure, relaxed on toning table while nail polish dries, the gentle movement of the toning table made me drowsy, went to bed to snuggle down for a nap, cat joined me.
4pm - large mug of ginger & lemon tea
6pm - 2 bowls of soup, large mug of apple & cinnamon tea
Played Ludo and Dominoes with the family, talking, laughing, nice evening
9pm - cup of camomile & lime tea bg 4.8
Off to bed, all relaxed, calm, happy
This morning - fbg 4.6 - feeling fresh, alert, weight 61kg - HUNGRY finished off the fasting soup with savoury cheese, onion & bacon buns.
Next fasting day is Thursday next week.

 

[Defren]

I did one day fasting before I went on holiday, then started properly this week. I chose Tuesday and Thursday as these are days where I can fit it in nicely. On Tuesday I ate 417 calories which included 21g of carbs. I got the shock of my life with a bedtime reading of 4.1. Yesterday I ate 216 calories with 11g of carbs and had a bedtime reading of 4.9. Today, as I felt well I decided to 24 hour fast, so having had dinner last night, that ended up being my last meal until dinner tonight. My pre dinner reading was 4.7. I have had a large dinner and desert that came to 980 calories and 13g of carbs - I confess to being extremely full. :lol:

I will fast each Tuesday and Thursday as I want to see for myself the results. Fasting days are harder than the Newcastle diet in my opinion, I was never hungry doing that but do have hunger pangs with the 5:2 fasting, however no where near bad enough for me to stop.

One thing I have noticed all ready, the days after fasting, I don't eat more than my usual calories. Ok today has to be discounted as I chose to make it a 24 hour fast with just fluid, but even on Wednesday I stayed at my usual calorie amount only just being less than 100 calories more. So for me, I don't need to do any kind of catchup eating the day after, I am just normal hunger wise the following day.

I'm very glad it's Friday and no fasting now until Tuesday, I don't like feeling hungry, but have to try this. I have a very inquiring mind and it needs to know. :lol:

 

[viviennem]

Well done. Defren. I'm afraid my 'good intentions' haven't turned into fact yet - I'll have a go at a fast day on Tuesday. I've got so much going on at the moment that my mind isn't on it, I'm afraid.

Excuses, excuses . . . :wink:

Viv 8)