Low carb and putting on weight

[carty]

There may not be a smilie but I have a great mental picture :lol:
CAROL

 

[librarising]

I tend to believe what the medical profession believe rather than what some maverick with a 'feory' says ...

Sid,

with your faithfulness to medical advice, I wish I could look forward to the day the medical professionals apologise to you.
It won't happen.
But one day their advice will change. A sort of Carbohydrate-gate.
You're obviously old enough to remember Watergate, the first of the many 'gates' that followed.
Investigative journalists exposing politicians. Or do you prefer to believe what politicians tell you ?

Investigative journalists bring their skills to exposing bad practice, and that's ALL Gary Taubes is doing.
I found his book so shocking I bought my own copy, and read through it most nights.
His approach is not that he's right, but that clinical/medical research is nowhere near as clear-cut as researchers claim. More research is needed. He's the first to admit that.
It's not his research. It's the research current medical advice here and in the States is based on, however loosely.
You'll see how medical advice is based on 'feory.'

Read it, and then dismiss it, but it's an enlightening read.
You know you want to :wink:

Geoff

 

[Sid Bonkers]

Read it, and then dismiss it, but it's an enlightening read.
You know you want to :wink:

Why would I want to do that when it is only the low carb fraternity that believe his doctrine? I have listened to a couple of his videos thanks and wasnt impressed I have also read a lot of blogs and articles that dismiss Taubes as just a best selling author out to make a buck, nothing wrong with that until people start believing in him without question, like some religious cult hanging on his every word.

No I'll carry on believing what the vast majority of cardio vascular and diabetes specialists say thanks, insulin does not make you fat unless you eat too much, insulin alone can not make you fat it is just a catalyst as far as storing fat is concerned. I lost 4 stones while on insulin and as for waiting for the medical profession to apologise to me - why would they? I currently have an HbA1c of 5.4% and for the last 3 years it has not been out of the 5% range. So you tell me what I am doing wrong that you Taubes or anyone else could help me with? Oh and I'm not on high meds either before you point that finger, just Metformin

And your analogy with Watergate is just farcical, do you really see scientists and doctors in the same light as politicians? Perhaps thats why you're so willing to believe Taubes?

 

[librarising]

do you really see scientists and doctors in the same light as politicians?

When to agree means to help employment prospects and research funding, and to disagree means the opposite.
Sad but true.

Taubes' investigative journalism makes this clear.

Geoff

p.s. I'm only asking you to read Taubes' book for the expose it offers. Not to read about his feories.

 

[Sid Bonkers]

do you really see scientists and doctors in the same light as politicians?

When to agree means to help employment prospects and research funding, and to disagree means the opposite.
Sad but true.

Taubes' investigative journalism makes this clear.

Geoff

p.s. I'm only asking you to read Taubes' book for the expose it offers. Not to read about his feories.

Sorry I dont understand, are you saying that you believe scientists and doctors are no better than politicians? And I am not remotely interested in reading a book by someone whos ideas I do not agree with - his ideas are well known and I have already stated that I have watched a couple of his videos.

How about you reading this piece http://carbsanity.blogspot.co.uk/2012/0 ... mment-form I'm pretty sure you wont want to as it pretty much exposes Taubes for what he is, a seller of diet books. :lol:

Each to their own Geoff, I dont care what you do but please stop telling me what I should do, read my new signature

 

[borofergie]

How about you reading this piece http://carbsanity.blogspot.co.uk/2012/0 ... mment-form I'm pretty sure you wont want to as it pretty much exposes Taubes for what he is, a seller of diet books. :lol:

What? You mean a journalist?

 

[viviennem]

I'm not joining in the argument! I've read it all too many times before! :yawn:

My version of Atkins is Modified because I include some carbs in it (cereal, oatcakes, crispbread) which are not allowed on Atkins' Induction. This was to make it easier for my brother.

The best book on low-carbing for diabetes, in my opinion, is Atkins Diabetes Revolution, written after his death by Dr M C Vernon and J A Eberstein. It's basically for Type 2s, but Type 1s will find useful info in it too. It includes all the weight loss info.

Off to the podiatrist now!

Viv 8)

 

[xyzzy]

Likewise Viv not rising to it.

Sid I don't dispute for one minute that you have successfully controlled your T2D, come off insulin, all of that of which you should be proud. You have done it your way and it worked for you.

Trouble is your "NHS" way patently doesn't work for the majority of patients and that's what I care about, getting the health system to recommend the way that works the best for the most number of people.

That survey that Dr Briffa chap was talking about on Radio 4 the other week stated 95% of T2's who adopted a lower, controlled carb regime were able to both control their levels successfully and give up a lot of their medication. That route has worked for me and 19 out of 20 of the diabetics in the research study he quoted. That research and others like it has been seen to be compelling enough for a lot of other countries to adopt a similar controlled carb approach for their own health systems.

The misearble failure of the NHS's own statistics speak for themselves. For example in 2008 over 70% (so 7 out of 10 people) had an HbA1c greater than 7.5% which is the NHS's own very lax upper limit and as you know exceeds even the 8.5 mmol/l NICE guideline that this country still clings to.

So well done Sid in the face of all that adversity you succeeded and should be congratulated, so continue with what you are doing but let the rest of us have a chance to live a full lifespan and follow systems and guidance that work for vast majority.

 

[Sid Bonkers]

That survey that Dr Briffa chap was talking about on Radio 4 the other week stated 95% of T2's who adopted a lower, controlled carb regime were able to both control their levels successfully and give up a lot of their medication. That route has worked for me and 19 out of 20 of the diabetics in the research study he quoted. That research and others like it has been seen to be compelling enough for a lot of other countries to adopt a similar controlled carb approach for their own health systems.

I do not disagree with any of that xyzzy " a lower, controlled carb regime" is exactly what worked for me I just object to being told to read certain books that I have no interest in and I do not need to low carb to the extent that some claim is the only way. I dont think our carb intake is a million miles apart xyzzy, if anything I eat fewer carbs than you do, so why is there a problem?

so continue with what you are doing but let the rest of us have a chance to live a full lifespan and follow systems and guidance that work for vast majority.

As Ive just said you and I seem to be following pretty much the same advice, to cut back on carbs, whats the problem?

You seem to be imagining a problem that does not exist

 

[lucylocket61]

Just my experience:

I gained weight,eating the same amount of food as I always have, in the 2 years that I now realise I was pre-diabetic. No amount of dieting shifted the weight or stopped my slow but steady weight gain even on less than 1250 cals a day, mainly of carbs. Now I am on 100g or less or carbs a day and my blood glucose levels have dropped and I have lost 4kg in 4 weeks even though I am eating more (1500+ cals a day)

So my experience is that being pre-diabetic made me fat, not that I became fat and then developed diabetes.

The same happened to my father and brother, with the weight gain primarily around our middles.

But we may be unusual. But I wont be surprised to find, in several years time, that instead of blaming some of the obesity epidemic on causing the diabetes type 2 epidemic, they find that it is not our fault. The diabetes made us fat, not the other way round.

But this is not scientific evidence, only my experience and observation.

 

[xyzzy]

You seem to be imagining a problem that does not exist

I'm likely never going to read whats-his-name book. It may be the gospel truth it make be a pack of lies, I don't care.

To successfully do a "controlled carb regime" its for each individual to determine what grams / day they need to do and to do that using an eat to your meter approach. If you can't afford to eat to a meter then I'd like to personally see a NICE guideline recommendation set at around 130g as that seems sensible and playing it safe and also update the 8.5 BG level to 7.8 to bring it in line with other countries. Apart from the the g / day figure and the 7.8 v 8.5 I would guess you and I have very little we would argue about regarding physically what we eat.

I want to eat a lower carb diet that I can go to Tescos and Asda or wherever and afford to buy rather than debate the finer aspects and politics of low carbing.

Where you and I really differ (and correct me if I'm wrong Sid) is that you don't think a problem exists in the NHS and its current attitudes and recommendations regarding treatment. I most certainly do. For example you haven't addressed my statement:

The misearble failure of the NHS's own statistics speak for themselves. For example in 2008 over 70% (so 7 out of 10 people) had an HbA1c greater than 7.5% which is the NHS's own very lax upper limit and as you know exceeds even the 8.5 mmol/l NICE guideline that this country still clings to.

These to me are the more fundamental issues that need addressing, far more than a grams / day or GI argument where in reality all but the VLC and GI fundamentalists at both extremes seem to have some kind of consensus view. To make it clear I don't think anyone currently posting is a VLC or GI fundamentalist. It would be nice to hear you say the same thing.

What I have never heard you say Sid is whether like me you think that having 70% of diabetics with an HBA1C over 7.5% shows a failing system or answering similar type "failing system" points. If you don't think the system is failing then tell us why? That's a very straightforward question that I think most members would like an answer to.

Another one of my current favourites that never gets an answer. Why if we have an 8.5 guideline are patients not told about it or told 10 or 12 or whatever higher number is ok. Do you think that is right? Does that to you show the system is failing?

It's very easy to simply turn everything into a VLC or GI debate and then personalise it (not saying its always you by any means as there has to be two people to argue). This happens time and time again until the admins tell people to shut up. Its just a tactic that both sides KNOWINGLY use to stifle debate for their self serving reasons. I think most current forum members are now seeing through it and are fed up with it. What they want is answers and action.

 

[noblehead]

I'm pretty much "all-in" with the low-carb high-fat thing at the moment

The fact that you are ''all in'' with what Taubes et al are saying Stephen very little would persuade you otherwise.

I've not read or even viewed a Taubes video and would never intend too unless the current thinking changes, authors like these are appealing to the like of you as you follow a very low-carb diet and need some reassurance that the dietary path you are following is the right one, to the majority of diabetics and non-diabetics alike most would never have heard of these authors never mind believe in their views.

 

[hanadr]

Calories IN ~Calories OUT
simply doesn't work.
It does work pretty well with internal combustion engines, which use only one chemical process to release stored energy fom fuel.
We have many interacting biochemical processes which act as feedback controls on each other. the upshot of that is that given a high level of circulating fat molecules in the absence of large amounts of insulin, we DON'T store that fat.
We burn it!. Glucose is an easily accessible fast acting fuel. If it's around,in the presence of insulin, our systems use it and store the excess.
The mechanisms aren't well understood, which is why there's so much arguement about it, but it has been shown that high fat/low carb diets are very effective in weight loss and in BG conrol independently of how many Calories are ingested.
I'm sure part of the problem in confusion is in simply understanding that a Calorie is a unit of energy and that the mechanisms for converting energy in a living system are moderated by enzymes. It's NOT a single, simple , chemical reaction
Hana

 

[noblehead]

Calories IN ~Calories OUT
simply doesn't work.

Worked well for me.......2st 6lb lighter :wave:

 

[xyzzy]

the majority of diabetics and non-diabetics alike most would never have heard of these authors never mind believe in their views.

Correct why should they?

It should be up to the health system to decide what advice to give patients. What we find at the moment is that the very system that is supposed to help us fails to do so because of its own inertia and self interests. No one is saying every diabetic should read such and such, that is patently rubbish. What we expect is for are HCP's to give us the best advice which patently they are not.

I would read my previous post noblehead. Perhaps you would like to answer the same questions I posed to Sid rather than try and start a diverting argument with Stephen or Hana. I apologise to you now if that is not your intent.

 

[hanadr]

xyzzy
I think I have part of the answer to one of your questions on why NHs targets are so lax.
Many doctors have found that patients are looking for a quick and easy solution to everything. They don't expect to have to make an effort.
Since the dietary advice to diabetics changed [around 30 years ago] from" eat less carbsand learn exchanges" to eat what you like and take more medicine". This has encouraged the "Take the easy way out" culture. Doctors are taught the lax targets, because someone thinks those are fairly easily attainable, by MOST diabetics. In the process the Healthcare professions have lost the knowledge of NORMAL carbohydrate metabolism and truly Don't know what a NORMAL BG or HbA1c are. Ask some. they simply tell you the target numbers. In fact the Normal/non-diabetic numbers are not easy to find.
The myths have become self perpetuating. diabetics are only expected to achieve a level of control, which was found to be easily achievable.
Add to that crummy dietary advice and you have today's situation.

As to Reading Gary Taubes , Sid,
the man spent YEARS researching scientific papers to answer questions and did a brilliant job.
My edition of Taubes book, which is an original US one, has 66 pages of references to scientific papers.
He certainly used a lot of evidence in his attack on orthodoxy. and the book is ery readable
When weight loss diets have been examined, it has been shown that many of them work if people stick to them, but that all have drop-outs. the drop out rate for calorie control diets is high and the relapse rate, leading to regaining lost weight is high too.
Hana

 

[noblehead]

I would read my previous post noblehead. Perhaps you would like to answer the same questions I posed to Sid rather than try and start a diverting argument with Stephen or Hana. I apologise to you now if that is not your intent.

Apology accepted xyzzy, of course I'm not 'diverting argument' merely pointing out that Taubes et al are irrelevant to the vast majority of people and experts on health-care, the reply to Hana was in response to her saying cals in/cals out doesn't work.......it sure did work for me!

 

[Patch]

Hi, everybody!

 

[Sid Bonkers]

Where you and I really differ (and correct me if I'm wrong Sid) is that you don't think a problem exists in the NHS and its current attitudes and recommendations regarding treatment. I most certainly do. For example you haven't addressed my statement:

The misearble failure of the NHS's own statistics speak for themselves. For example in 2008 over 70% (so 7 out of 10 people) had an HbA1c greater than 7.5% which is the NHS's own very lax upper limit and as you know exceeds even the 8.5 mmol/l NICE guideline that this country still clings to.

I dont think the current NHS recommendations are that bad, no, but let me qualify that statement.

The figures above (7 out of 10) do not show whether the 70% are even following NHS advice do they? Perhaps some of these people are eating big mac's with fries (large) every day we just dont know do we? I do think that the current NHS advise is too open to interpretation and that some PCT's are better than others at interpreting the advice as are some doctors, nurses etc. I eat carbs with most meals but I limit the amount of food I eat (portion control). At the recent Diabetes UK event I attended a woman on my table took 4 chocolate biscuits with her pre event cuppa, OK it may not have been a good idea to have them there but I am not aware of any DUK or NHS advice that says you can eat chocolate biscuits. The fact is you can put in place any recommendations you like they will always be open to interpretation by individuals and organisations alike. And quite honestely do you really think that by reducing the NICE's 8.5mmol/L to by .7 of a mmol/L would make the slightest reduction to those 70% of diabetics who fail to achieve the recommendations, no it would just make the number higher.

As for telling people that 10 mmol/L is OK, no I dont agree with that but I am not responsible for every doctor, perhaps, just perhaps that/those person/people were told that as they had successfully reduced there bg levels from higher levels, we don t have all the facts, but generally no I do not think that is good advice and I have never stated that it is.

I do not think the NHS is infallible I do not think that they have all the answers in fact far from it I dont think most GP's have a clue and consultants only know what is known today which in many areas is very little, but I would still prefer to trust them over Taubs, Groves etc any day. As the advice they give is based on the current best scientifically proven data. Not some half copied theory dragged up and regurgitated just to make a best selling diet book.

The advice I was given was good, not perfect, but good and did help me but a lot is how we interpret that advice just as how the HCP interpret the advice they are given in training, you are well acquainted with Chinese whispers I imagine, there will never be perfect advice that is understood 100% by HCP or patients alike. It has been said on here before that we are perhaps the enlightened ones who are prepared to be pro active in our management of diabetes, sadly many people are not and probably never will be until its too late, thats the sad truth of the matter, the nitty gritty, most diabetics think well I feel OK now so whats the problem, or I've stopped eating sugar what more do want me to do.

Diabetes is called the silent killer for a reason xyzzy, no one can see the damage as its being done and I believe that many think that because they feel OK then thats all right. When the information most are given is to eat a healthy diet, I know, that is open to interpretation again isnt it? But no dietitian is going to tell any diabetic that they are OK to eat platefuls of potatoes or rice or pasta or two or three doorstep sandwiches made from crusty white bread, again the problem is interpretation.

 

[Sid Bonkers]

Calories IN ~Calories OUT
simply doesn't work.

Worked well for me.......2st 6lb lighter :wave:

Worked pretty well for me too 4 stone weight loss :thumbup: