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Veggie Burger that bleeds?

Discussion in 'Vegetarian Diet Forum' started by Oldvatr, Jan 14, 2019.

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  1. Mbaker

    Mbaker Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    What a great critique of the nonsense Eat Lancet and Co are trotting out. The fact Zoe Harcombe was able to destroy their dietary plate for being dietarily deficient in literally minutes speaks volumes. Dr Shawn Baker has shown that they promote circa 50% of their plate should come from seed oils, grains and sugar....I can't wait for the reckoning. At some point all of this ....will be publicly challenged at a level everyone can understand. We cannot allow a repeat of the low fat high carb experiment. In simple terms would I have got so sick if I had eaten the way I do now, 10 years ago?
     
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  2. Marie 2

    Marie 2 LADA · Well-Known Member

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    Past research has shown you live longer as a vegetarian and a vegan. And then there's the planet health and how much water and other products it takes to get meat on the table. I have listed some of the research, there is of course a lot more out there.

    Low Carb raising afib risk article
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...-risk-heart-rhythm-disorders-study-finds.html

    A Way To Reverse CAD?
    http://dresselstyn.com/JFP_06307_Article1.pdf

    An 18-week dietary intervention using a low-fat plant-based diet in a corporate setting improves body weight,plasma lipids, and, in individuals with diabetes, glycemic control.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3701293/pdf/ejcn201392a.pdf

    A Plant-Based Dietary Intervention Improves Beta-Cell Function and Insulin Resistance in Overweight Adults: A 16-Week Randomized Clinical Trial
    ( *Nutrients* **2018** , *10* (2), 189; [https://doi.org/10.3390/nu10020189 ](https://doi.org/10.3390/nu10020189), Abstract)

    Increased fat intake negatively alters the microbiome
    https://www.pcrm.org/news/health-nutrition/increased-fat-intake-negatively-alters-microbiome

    The whole world is against low carbers right? Yet the majority of the world doesn't believe that eating low carb is healthy. But just because you prefer that way to eat, everyone else must be wrong.

    Guys if you want to eat low carb, that's your choice and obviously is easier for some people to control their sugars that way and that's important. But it's not healthier than other ways of eating. And other ways of eating are not bad.
     
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  3. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Look at the science behind the claims (or lack of it) follow the money behind the claims. Take a good long impartial look at the facts versus the rubbish pseudo-science. And read the small print about what they are calling a fat, and the real cost of soya, plant oils etc etc to the planet. Especially if all the people changed to plant based diets, needing vastly more water, soil and other resources to feed them.
     
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  4. Marie 2

    Marie 2 LADA · Well-Known Member

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    No, you don't need more water etc for plant based diet. The cow etc have to eat full meals. So instead of the plant directly going to your table, much more has to be fed to the cows, and water, and then you get a smaller amount of meat on your table. There is a lot of research on that too. Vegans use the least acreage for food, then vegetarians are next.
     
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  5. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    And without the ruminants the grain-land has to be treated with man made fertilisers because these vast monocultures deplete the soil nutrients and have a devastating impact on wildlife esp pollinators. Herbicide and pestice use is at an all time high. There are areas in the US where tests have shown that the soil is completely dead, no biological life - no nematodes, no bacteria, no fungi, nothing.
     
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  6. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    https://qz.com/749443/being-vegan-isnt-as-environmentally-friendly-as-you-think/

    People seem to forget that a lot of the land used for grazing is not suitable for crop growth. And often the water calculated and quoted for a dairy cow ignores the natural rainfall, which falls on both grazing land and crop lands, so the cow water consumption appears larger than it is due to not deducting the rainfall.
     
  7. Glucobabu

    Glucobabu Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Problem with most ready meals.
     
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  8. Marie 2

    Marie 2 LADA · Well-Known Member

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    Yep, the soil is having a problem with nutrients. Crop rotation helps solve that. But a goodly amount of crops is used to feed cows. Hmmm especially soy and corn for cows. Same crops over and over again in mass amounts for farm feed. And lots of pesticides. Cows produce all sorts of nasty run offs and methane gases. And yes there is calculations out there that take into account actual water and land usage and vegans still use less land and then vegetarians.
    Oh and by the way, if there is enough rain water for cows, then there is enough rain water for things to grow.
     
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  9. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    What of the carcinogeic pesticides? Glyphosate being used simply to get all of a crop ready at the same time for harvesting?
     
  10. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    You ar missing the point that we need birds and animals to make manure to fertilize the ground to grow crops. Green manure is limited in use and effectiveness and the soil quickly exhausts. The change in the crops animals eat, in their gut, to make the manure into a form of readily unprocessed fertilizer the ground needs has no artificial ecologically safe counterpart.
     
  11. Zilsniggy

    Zilsniggy Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Soylent Green, anybody????
     
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  12. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Other · Well-Known Member

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    Most of the water a cow consumes comes straight out onto the pasture where it provides the nitrogen fertilizer and is recycled naturally. How much water is extracted when grains and pulses are dried for storage and transport, only to be re hydrated when prepared as edible food?
    Again, meat processing uses water for washing etc, but again this is recycled locally Water is not lost. The isssue is not lack of water, but of using sanitised drinking water which applies to both. Animals do not need to drink purified potable water but it is often convenience that determines this.

    I believe rice cultivation uses far more water resource that livestock
     
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  13. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Other · Well-Known Member

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    Soy is also used to make food for humans too, from edamame beans to Tofu and many processed meals contain it. We would need much more Soy cultivation to feed the world and this would increase the acreage considerably. Palm oil is also having significant impact on land grabbing and deforestation, and that is not associated with livestock.
    Corn and grain is only really used in factory farming to improve high end luxury meat for the gourmets and rich. Most livestock will only require grain in dire emergencies when pasture and silage is unavailable. Chickens and ducks use grain for fattening and colour improving, again for the upper end of the market. This will continue to be in place even when Eat Lancet is in place.
     
  14. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Other · Well-Known Member

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  15. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Master

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    Yep all the waste that is produced for the non human edible bits.. when you look at how much is wasted when corn, soy etc are grown this is what is fed to animals.. the stalks and leaves that you guys don't eat.
    Whereas when a cow is eaten almost all of it is used.
     
  16. WuTwo

    WuTwo Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    This thread has wandered away from the subject of the veggie burger that bleeds :yuck: but my response to @oldvater's question "why" would be - I guess it's because they could.

    I don't know one ethical veggie or vegan who would willingly eat it. I suppose some of those who are plant-based for dietary and not ethical reasons might but the thought of it makes me feel ill.

    Why does any of you care what vegans eat or don't eat? I couldn't give a flying fig what you had for dinner or lunch. I'm actually really confused by it - if you want to eat meat go right ahead. It's cool with me. I won't but that's fine too, surely.
     
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  17. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I do not care about the choices people make for their diet, in that sense.

    I DO care when a diet is being touted as good for type 2 diabetics, and it is not, and can make our condition far worse. That is why I am posting, and refuting. People on here and elsewhere will read the claims, and think they are accurate. Then, with no-one to refute them and show the truth of the 'research' may well end up with progressively worse type 2 diabetes, and complications.

    I just cant let that go unchallenged. Its NOT about vegans or vegetarians per se, its about the unreliable and wrong claims made about the effect of their diet on type 2's and the planet.
     
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  18. WuTwo

    WuTwo Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Ah - thank you for the clarification :) (not a snarky comment - genuinely thank you because I was puzzled).

    I'm going to bow out because I'm not type 2, although I do follow a lower carb diet than "normal" folk and find it fits in well with my lifestyle. It isn't low carb by your standards though, I know that.

    So - challenge away, but the OP was about that ghastly burger, not the lifestyle itself.
     
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  19. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Other · Well-Known Member

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    May I suggest you do some research into EAT Lancet and the UN FAO bodies that have an agenda to stop all livestock farming worldwide. They are funding this move to replace animal protein with plant based meat substitutes and marketing it all as being healthier. As an Omnivore, I object strongly to this interference. The interested bodies include Cargill, Kellogg, Wellcome, Coca Cola, and more than 40 cereal and grain product purveyors.
     
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  20. WuTwo

    WuTwo Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    @Oldvatr - I don't know why you guys are so worried. Most countries have elected governments - no mainstream political party is going to put the idea the country should go vegan on its manifesto and seriously expect to get voted in! Vegans are about 1% of the population. I should think less than that in some countries where even just being veggie raises eyebrows. Not going to be a vote catching idea!

    Can you imagine the uproar - nationwide and very loud!

    But I get that you're outraged and upset at the possibility of all this coming to pass. What about pro-omni focus groups, action groups etc - they must exist. Consider joining and putting your feelings into positive action?
     
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