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Dr Jason Fung mauled by impeccable logic of Calorie Restriction fans...
- Thread starter pdmjoker
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lucylocket61
Expert
This is playing out exactly like any dietary conversation with a low carb evangelist.
It works for you. I get it.
There's plenty for which it doesn't though and it primarily down to denying CICO and blaming it all on carbs. I've been there and worked with these people.
Low carb diets produce spontaneous calorie reductions without monitoring calorie intake when studied in a lab setting. That's why they work. That and restricting an entire food group, less choice = less opportunity to screw up.
lucylocket61
Expert
Excellent so my credentials are still intact.. thank you..
It is also very similar to many other conversations I have had with equally certain CICO zealots.
Unfortunately I didn't start to keep a food diary until I had lost the bulk of my weight so can't give you exact details of what I used to eat. However when I started out I was eating about 3-4,000 calories per day at a weight of 230 pounds.
I should have been gaining weight as I was also very sedentary and still am. That did not happen.
CICO is not a diet, it's the law of thermodynamics.
It works for all whether you accept it or not.
Post edited by moderator to remove an insult to another member.
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lucylocket61
Expert
"About 3000-4000 calories"
In other words no idea.
When overweight and obese populations have been studied using doubly labelled water they mis report their intake by up to half in either direction.
Just watch secret eaters for a perfect demostration of this.
FYI a fairly sedentary 230lb man could easily have a weight maintenance calorie requirement of around 3000-3500 calories.
Resurgam
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It is rather funny to have been told so emphatically that when trying to eat low fat low calorie, and failing, I was eating more than I realized, but now that I am eating low carb high fat, and succeeding, I am eating less than I think.
Perhaps personal experience just has to be wrong no matter what it is.
Perhaps personal experience just has to be wrong no matter what it is.
Guzzler
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CICO works great on paper. Meanwhile, in the real world, it is said that 95% to 98*% of those who lose weight using a calorie restricted diet regain the lost weight and some even gain more than they lost. Hence the phrase known and heard by many here "Oh I must go back to WW/SW" the operative words being 'go back'.
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Ladies and gents, this thread is becoming increasingly fractious, which cannot be allowed. Please remain civil and courteous to each other, or risk the consequences of thread edits, deletions and exclusion from the conversation.
This applies to everyone. Everyone.
This applies to everyone. Everyone.
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Dark Horse
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I suspect that some of the disagreement on this thread arises because non-scientists and scientists are using CICO to mean different things.
To understand CICO, scientists will consider a person under controlled conditions, e.g. locked in a room with controlled calorie intake and with all calorie outputs measured (weight gain, exercise, non-exercise activity thermogenesis etc.). This does not stop scientists from agreeing that, in the real world, calorie-controlled diets are mostly not successful for weight-loss in the long-term for various reasons - people tend to have trouble sticking to low calories diet, underestimate how much they eat, tend to reduce their activity levels as they reduce their calories etc. etc.
CICO is perfectly compatible with the idea that a low-carb diet might be more successful for maintaining weight-loss than a calorie-controlled diet - CICO tells us nothing about appetite, eating habits, voluntary exercise, changes in BMR etc.
To understand CICO, scientists will consider a person under controlled conditions, e.g. locked in a room with controlled calorie intake and with all calorie outputs measured (weight gain, exercise, non-exercise activity thermogenesis etc.). This does not stop scientists from agreeing that, in the real world, calorie-controlled diets are mostly not successful for weight-loss in the long-term for various reasons - people tend to have trouble sticking to low calories diet, underestimate how much they eat, tend to reduce their activity levels as they reduce their calories etc. etc.
CICO is perfectly compatible with the idea that a low-carb diet might be more successful for maintaining weight-loss than a calorie-controlled diet - CICO tells us nothing about appetite, eating habits, voluntary exercise, changes in BMR etc.
1spuds
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I noticed that too.
Tophat1900
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I do agree, we are talking about the real world, not the controlled world of ward studies. Calorie restriction (Eat less, move more) has a long history of failure. It's just not as simple as CICO, there is more to it then that. If it were that simple and that easy it would a very successful approach.
It is true that people are terrible at estimating how much they have eaten unless they measure food and log everything, but when people adhere to a diet and eventually can't maintain it, it's because they are starving. And telling people they are not being honest when they are is not just insulting to a person, but it makes me wonder if defending a position is more important.
I think CICO plays a role in weight management, it can't be ignored, but it's missing other components such as the role of insulin and various other markers you mentioned. Thinking CICO is all it takes is like buying a painting to hang on your wall, beautifully framed, nice scenic painting, but 50% of the picture hasn't been finished.... so just ignore that unfinished part and assume that the whole painting is more of the same.
M
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Ah I didn’t realise our new members were nutritionists and personal trainers. Looks like we got it all wrong, guys. Can’t believe I was duped by Dr. Fung all this time. If only I’d listened to expert opinion instead 
Winnie53
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Didn't Nina Tiecholz do a lecture on thermodynamics and weight loss? I've been listening to her lectures tonight to find it, but no luck so far.
I've dieted twice in my life. South Beach Diet - (which is low carb and low fat) - lost 20 pounds but was hungry the whole month so stopped it. Then more recently, low carb high fat, lost 26 pounds, and enjoyed it once I became fat adapted. Still eating that way 4+ years later.
I've dieted twice in my life. South Beach Diet - (which is low carb and low fat) - lost 20 pounds but was hungry the whole month so stopped it. Then more recently, low carb high fat, lost 26 pounds, and enjoyed it once I became fat adapted. Still eating that way 4+ years later.
Winnie53
BANNED
Oops, it was actually Zoe Harcombe...
Public Lecture Series: 'The Obesity Epidemic' - Zoë Harcombe.
She tackles the topic at the beginning of her lecture.
Public Lecture Series: 'The Obesity Epidemic' - Zoë Harcombe.
She tackles the topic at the beginning of her lecture.
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Ah I didn’t realise our new members were nutritionists and personal trainers. Looks like we got it all wrong, guys. Can’t believe I was duped by Dr. Fung all this time. If only I’d listened to expert opinion instead
Well, I have to disagree with you Jim.
I discovered long ago that there is no one - absolutely no one - is an expert in me and my endocrinologolically challenged body - except myself, of course. I now live in a happy zone, building a wall to keep out the Expert stuff that doesn’t work for me.
If only I had discovered this earlier, then I wouldn’t be in the physical condition I now am.
All those expert pearls of wisdom that turned out to be corrosive stink bombs... eat less, move more, CICO, all you need is willpower, if I can do it then anyone can, go for the burn...
Nowadays I require a great deal more from an Expert than numerous repetitions of ‘I am an Expert so I am right and you are wrong. Now stop arguing and do what I tell you!’
My life is one long experimental journey on what works for me - my body, my endocrine system, my food intolerances, my joints, my blood glucose... very pleased with my progress so far, too.
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